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Small detail, big play

Discussion in 'Bedrock Beta General Discussion' started by Sexy jutsu tebayo, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. Sexy jutsu tebayo
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    Sexy jutsu tebayo Blood Imp

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    Its fully understood that this game is alpha stages. And after taking a look at how the game is feeling at this stage, I have to say its feeling a chaotic feel is missing so far. The game looks now an organized, structured and too many perfect squares.
    I guess I miss the randomized dirt blocks as they break, the imperfect looking walls and tiles. It added to the chaotic feeling and replay value that its predecessor had.
    How do you guys feel about the small things that can make the game for you?
  2. Jobs2k
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    Jobs2k Chunder Backer

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    This game has no 'predecessors'...

    There is a plan to introduce 'random clutter' that may possibly cater to your desires.
  3. Varis
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    Varis Firebreather

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    Oh, please. WFTO is a spiritual successor to DK games, so they are it's spiritual predecessors.

    I personally think it's the small things that make the flare of a game, so they are quite important for the overall experience, eventough they wouldn't matter for the actual gameplay.
  4. Jobs2k
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    Jobs2k Chunder Backer

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    I was being picky, I agree.
    The key word in your post is 'spiritual'. You, myself and many others know where the idea of this game came from but the developers of WFTO are doing everything they can to stand apart from that franchise. I just want them, and WFTO, to be able to stand on their own merits, not be continually perceived as 'more DK'.
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  5. Varis
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    Varis Firebreather

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    I was afraid that you were denying the influence of DK, which would be absurd. I was perhaps a bit over sensitive for some of the comments on the forum just have been quite aggressive when somebody has pointed something that could be learned from DK:s and should be fixed on WFTO (and I mean things that were broken on DK and could be improved upon, not the other way around) and the reply was automatically "This is not DK!".

    You are absolutely right: WFTO is it's own game and should be judged on it's own merits. Amount of requests for IP from DK has been quite astounding and I can fully understand that it might get quite tiring for long time forum members, let alone for the developers.
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  6. AvatarIII
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    AvatarIII Beast Master Founder

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    "Wonky walls and floors" is hardly Dungeon Keeper IP though. I totally agree with jutso actually, and I bought it up over a year ago to the dev team, unfortunately I believe the main reason for not having wonky walls and floors is simply because having them would mean the game has to render a lot more irregular polygons, rather than the floor and tops of the walls all being one large flat area as it is now, it would have to render every bump.

    Basically the technology that DK2 used to achieve this effect has been made obsolete by gaming graphics taking a different direction, it is just not something that modern engines such as Unity support. It's like trying to play a vinyl in a CD player (vinyl is actually better quality sound, but because CDs are cheaper to make, more hardwearing, and not low enough sound quality for most people to care, CDs were the direction hard copies of music ended up taking in the end, also appropriate analogy because vinyls are bumpy and CDs are flat :D)

    So unless someone can think of a way to render bumpy floors and wonky walls without increasing the already high demand for computing resources the game already has, be my guest.
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  7. Jobs2k
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    Jobs2k Chunder Backer

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    I've always believed that digital is superior but you can't beat the sound of a needle dropping. There are still many DJs today that won't mix with anything but vinyl.
  8. AvatarIII
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    AvatarIII Beast Master Founder

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    vinyl is uncompressed and a perfect representation of the recording, digital is a good approximation, even if the approximation is so good the human ear can't actually notice, it will still always be an approximation.
  9. Wolv
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    Wolv Dwarven Worker

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    Eh. Too me it just looks like DK2 (and DK1) use model for every wall (a 3 by 3 grid) where every point was just set at random.
    A jelly model... you know, the walls are jelly? MAN do I suck at explaining this. Notch once did this for Minecraft and thought it looked terrible and removed it.

    Man screw it, have a crappy drawing to illustrate what I mean:
    [​IMG]
    It wont increase the amount of polygons in models, certain points are just offset by a random amount on all plains (X,Y, Z) but I guess the game needs a reference to know where it should go.
    So that would take up resources probably and I honestly don't know how much of a deal that would be. Should be doable with just about any model though and it is called something something.
  10. AvatarIII
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    AvatarIII Beast Master Founder

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    I believe in Wfto every wall is a 1x1 grid, so it would not work the same
  11. Varis
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    Varis Firebreather

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    I think on DK2 faces of walls were formed only of 8 polygons so it would be 4 times as much than on a completely smooth, square face. There isn't completely smooth surfaces on WFTO other than floors and top faces of dirtblocks.

    <EDIT> And when I mentioned IP I didn't mean this post and wonky walls, I meant people are asking for certain creatures from DK franchise all the time (I think there's one new Horny chain going on again).
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
  12. v0id
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    v0id Programmer Dev Team

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    I'm sure we might further tweak to make earth walls look more irregular and natural but it is less likely that we do things like that for the floor for several reasons.
  13. Wolv
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    Wolv Dwarven Worker

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    In WTFO I can't tell if the walls actually have a model with depth or if it's done completely by bumpmaps (and thus is just 2 triangle polygons making a 1x1 grid).
    If it's a model with depth, you can just offset the points where polygons meet a little bit and get a similar random effect.
    It's hard to make it look good though, I found that DK1 was too extreme in how random it was so I turned it off.
    DK2 felt a bit better but that's mostly because their walls were 2x2 and not 3x3 (or so it seems).

    You are correct, it seems they indeed use 8 polygons making a 2x2 grid.

    What kind of reasons?
    I can only think of how it would demand more processing power than it's worth because it's hardly noticeable and bump-mapping can achieve a similar if not better look.
  14. v0id
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    v0id Programmer Dev Team

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    Because a motion physics making that look good (so that units walk according to the oddness) would be more costly or we would need a fine grained height map and it would still not be physically correct or we ignore the phyisics and accept more clipping.
    This might not be the final answer but I think we have still a lot else to improve or add, so that it is not worth to investigate deeper at this point.
    (what might change while development progresses and I'm not really the man who should answer these questions ;))
    For walls it is not so important if they have a simpler collider than their model and afaik the current earth is a model with depth, which is still unfinished/unpolished.
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  15. Peetfighter
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    Peetfighter Ember Demon Founder

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    If such feature ever will be in WFTO it would be nice to turn it off for better performance.
    In Dungeon Keeper 2 maybe, but in Dungeon Keeper 1 dungeons looked very square and neat just like WFTO does now.
  16. Antking
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    Antking Crackpot

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    They looked neat if you had an option turned off, but they were at least as chaotic looking, probably even more so, than DK2 when that option was on.
  17. AvatarIII
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    AvatarIII Beast Master Founder

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    I am 100% sure that the top of walls are completely flat with good bump maps.

    Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
  18. strich
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    strich Lead Programmer Dev Team

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    We had considered putting some time into having the walls procedurally deform to create a more natural and chaotic environment, however there are a number of considerations to take into account I'll explain briefly below, and in the end we felt the time required to do it correctly outweighed the value.

    * Performance would be negatively impacted as we would loose the ability to perform 'batch processing' on 3D models that are the same. There are some works around to this via shaders in the newer version of DirectX and OpenGL, but that then limits the feature to newer PCs only.
    * The 3D models we use for many of our walls are in fact quite complex. It would be difficult to procedurally offset wall models and ensure that various bits and pieces hanging off the props (lights, banners, etc) are still attached or aren't negatively deformed. We would also need to ensure that the randomly offset walls still seamlessly line up with other neighbour wall pieces. It is by no means impossible, but it pretty quickly becomes a fairly complex feature to implement properly.

    I would have liked to implement the procedural wall deformation feature and maybe we will take another look if we have time. But I would say that it is very unlikely at this point.
    I hope this has helped give you some insight to why we made the decision.
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  19. ManiaCCC
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    ManiaCCC Dwarven Worker

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    I believe OP was talking about unclaimed walls.. In DK2, unclaimed, dirt walls have many different shapes.. I actually don't believe there is some procedural deforming used..(deformations repeat very often there) so..wouldn't be just easier, for this basic dirt wall, to make few different models which would just randomly put here and there? and in the moment when tile next to this wall is claimed, wall will become standard flat square what you have now?

    Because I have to agree..details like these are pretty important for immersion..minecraft feel doesn't suite this game well honestly..
  20. strich
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    strich Lead Programmer Dev Team

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    The dirt wall set does in fact have variations. But in order to be able to snap them together they must be the same at the edges, which means that the more extreme you make the curves the more you'll notice a tiling effect. It will require a fair amount of effort to get what DK2 had.

    I don't think anyone in the team disagrees that it could be better, and maybe we'll have time to revisit it before release. However for now we're focusing on the core of the game.
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